Dr. Krisstal Clayton: Why DEI is Important & How it Inspires My Writing

A conversation with SAGE author Krisstal D. Clayton, PhD, clinical professor, director of undergraduate programs, and associate chair of academics for the Department of Psychology at the University of North Texas. She is passionate about engaging and inclusive pedagogy, and regularly provides invited talks and workshops on teaching. As a professor, Dr. Clayton is a student favorite known for her gamification techniques, storytelling, and application of fascinating real-world examples to psychology. She is also a consulting editor for the Journal of General Psychology.

Dr. Clayton is coauthor of Essentials of Psychology.

In this podcast, Dr. Clayton discusses the importance of DEI, shares the inspiration behind her writing, and reflects on lessons she has learned throughout her career as an educator and author. 

Transcript

Lara Parra, Associate Director of Editorial, SAGE: 0:03

What inspired you to become a textbook author?

Krisstal Clayton, SAGE Author: 0:08

I never thought I would be a textbook author. Um, it was, you know, something in the, the dreams that I had, wow, wouldn't it be amazing, you know, but I never thought I could be one. So honestly, I just very much got lucky for my with my first academic job because I taught over 15 Different preps. And that meant I was able to have my hands on so many different fields of psychology. I'm social psychologist by training, which you know, also was very helpful, but I really hadn't dug very deeply into things like abnormal psychology, sensation and perception. And so teaching, somebody perhaps forced me to do that. And I love to tell stories. And I love to build just my own teamwork assignments. And I really enjoy looking for real world stories, because I love to tell a story with my lecture. So when I got the opportunity with stage to pitch my dream textbook, I started to realize that all of this course prep, all of the stories, I collected the things I was able to test in the classroom, we're all coming together in this really amazing opportunity for a project, which would be a textbook with these two really great well established authors. And I couldn't let the opportunity pass me by, because it put everything I loved all together, storytelling, nerdiness teaching psychology. So here I am with this textbook with these really great co authors. And I will never forget the day I first saw it, and I actually started crying. Because I did just it hit me like a ton of bricks that Oh, wow. Everything I've ever done in my career kind of culminates to this one moment. So it's been a lot of different areas of inspiration that have gotten me to this moment.

Lara Parra, Associate Director of Editorial, SAGE: 2:12

And to represent diverse identities within our content. How does this come through in your writing?

Krisstal Clayton, SAGE Author: 2:19

Yeah, as a social psychologist, a lot of my background is about diversity, right, we have a lot of training in what used to be called cross cultural psychology. So a lot of what I learned about psychology is that it's really what psychology is all about trying to show what the human experience is, like, from as many diverse perspectives as possible. And the beauty of psychology is that it tries to find the way to execute this research to support our ideas about what it's like to actually be human. And so I really do want to make sure that that content comes through in my writing, by amplifying diverse voices, and using a lot of examples so that students can understand that the experiences of others probably aren't like the experiences that they themselves are having. So one story that I liked, and I decided that needed to be in the textbook was that of Serena Williams, because we often don't talk about the struggles that women experience in pregnancy and childbirth, especially those struggles for women of color. And I tried to let my readers know that Serena Williams happened to have these struggles. And this is something that my students often find surprising, because she's just right, this pillar of strength, athleticism, she's incredibly successful. And that doesn't really matter when it comes to health, wellness, the way that you're treated by the medical field. And she actually almost died because of complications after childbirth. And so the deeper I started looking into this, I started to find the statistics that the United States is one of the actual worst, industrial industrialized countries, for women to even survive childbirth, our maternal mortality rate is abysmal. It's just so bad. And we also don't have any of the support for women. That's postpartum. Right? So how does a woman figure out what she's going to be able to do to take care of her child? Right? And this is probably a new experience for her while she's also maybe having to think about employment, things of this nature. And so when my students really listen to this story, and then they learn about the statistics for how badly the United States supports women with children, they often ask me why they didn't know this before. Why they didn't know that pregnancy and childbirth was so dangerous and And the truth is we just don't really talk about it. So I need to talk about these things in the textbook, so that my students will take this with them outside of the classroom, because we need to have these voices raised. And we need to have these stories become very well known. And so my students make a connection with these stories, and especially with celebrities, people that they quote unquote, know, then they're also more likely to talk about it, because that makes the conversation even more interesting, right? And not just educational.

Lara Parra, Associate Director of Editorial, SAGE: 5:30

I think it's important to you know, what you all did in your book, down to pronouns down to language specifics terminology like caregivers,

Krisstal Clayton, SAGE Author: 5:41

yes, there are a lot of males that get left out of the equation too. So while males aren't at risk, right, during childbirth, and pregnancy, we don't have the things in place for them either to be able to participate for the amount of time that they need to be able to participate right, in the raising of their children. So there's so many issues that can easily be talked about in psychology, which is another reason why I just I love this opportunity is I really get the chance with my co authors to take this textbook, and weave in and out the stories that students are likely not getting exposed to.

Lara Parra, Associate Director of Editorial, SAGE: 6:29

What unique perspective or lived experience do you bring to your book that helps students relate to your content?

Krisstal Clayton, SAGE Author: 6:38

Yeah, so during grad school, I had a pretty traumatic experience. I had a very severe stalker, who also broke into my home. And I reached out to my professors about this, because that's what you do, right? You go to the adult. So I reached out to my professors, and I told them what had happened. And I kind of got shrugged shoulders. victim blaming, did you not lock your windows? Well, you know, you are a bartender right at night. So that's just kind of have begun to happen to you. And I was just very shocked that this was the response. And so unfortunately, what this taught me was that there wasn't a lot of compassion for what I had been going through. And I wasn't going to get any extra buffer, no extended due dates were offered to me. missing class wasn't an option. I was also helping with some grants. And so I was expected to be in attendance every day. And that also led me to being really good at compartmentalizing. I shoved it down for a very long time. And I kept wondering why I was getting sick, why I couldn't sleep, but I just kept pushing through. And so that unique experience with trauma, and also being a student, at the same time, really started to get me to think about what I wanted to be for students. And that was someone who can create a safe space for students to learn. And that might not seem like it's feasible for a textbook, but in my opinion, it absolutely is. Because if you just hit students right off the bat with something that might bring back traumatic memories, or might be hard for them to deal with, then they're going to put the book down and walk away. And so what I tried to do with my co authors throughout this textbook process is figure out how can I introduce these really hard topics in a way that is approachable, that connects with real stories, so that students can also take a moment to kind of shift their perspective and maybe put themselves and that other person's position. Because I didn't get that with my professors. When I reached out for help, they did not try to see the world from my perspective. So in this textbook, what we're really trying to achieve is all of these different opportunities for students to put themselves in the place of others, but do it in a way that of course, is approachable, and very safe. And is is a softer touch, right? Then something we might get just scrolling through social media, or just from the news, right, that doesn't really have that moment to coax you in to the conversation. And that also connects with me in a way that I'm still an educator. And so some days are harder than others. I have moments where I just have to walk away because it's just a bad day. I'll have some memories pop up. And then all of a sudden that triggers a lot of other things. And I know I have a lot of educators out there who have also had traumatic experiences, who just have days where they just can't but they pushed Do it anyway. So what I was really hoping through this textbook is that we could create something that also had really good pedagogical tools. So the textbook could do a lot of the heavy lifting. Hopefully, that would make the job of all of our educators a little bit easier to do take a little bit of that burden away, so that when they were having these types of days, right, they could lean a little bit heavier on the textbook, and all of the extra materials that come with it, like the things and Vantage, right, these really great video breakdowns, the quizzes, the really good exam banks that we have all of these things, I really wanted to be involved in all of those things so that we could support all of our educators out there, too.

Lara Parra, Associate Director of Editorial, SAGE: 10:50

That's fantastic. And I think it shows I think, that's one of the hallmarks of your book. What's your best piece of feedback or advice you've received? That's changed how you think about inclusion.

Krisstal Clayton, SAGE Author: 11:07

So this, I find this question really interesting, because I've been really fortunate to be exposed to several colleagues who come from marginalized groups. And when I thought about what might be the common thread that all of these wonderful colleagues have shared with me, and it's these consistent stories that demonstrate how Seeing is believing. So for one colleague, in particular, who is a member of the LGBTQ plus community, they shared with me that throughout their whole academic career, they didn't have a role model, they really didn't have anyone that they could look to that was like them. But they persevered because it was a dream of theirs to get their doctorate. And they really didn't think it was a big deal until they got into the classroom. And they shared with their students, they were a member of the LGBTQ plus community, and didn't really think that that was going to matter, right. But then at the end of class, students were walking up to them and just saying, Thank you, and how much it meant that they shared that information. Because they didn't know that they too, could be a person with a doctorate in psychology, they didn't know that that was possible for them. So being able to see my colleague in that role, showed them, hey, I'm hearing you can be here too. And so something that I'm learning from my colleagues who are from marginalized and underrepresented groups, is that we need to have this representation because students can't see themselves in our field, unless it's right in front of them. So making sure that we weave that into the textbook is incredibly important. Because if students don't have that opportunity in their professors, or in their mentors, I want them to have that opportunity in the textbook, so that they can see that a lot of the research that we're citing is written by people who are like them, people that have similar backgrounds, that we're sharing stories of people who are also like them to show that they're making an impact on the way that we look at each other and on the field of psychology. So helping them connect with people who are like them, seeing them in our textbook, says, hey, guess what, we're welcoming you to the table, and we want you to take a seat because your representation is important. And so thanks to my colleagues, right, I've really, really made sure to focus on the scene as believing aspect, so that students can see themselves in our material,

Lara Parra, Associate Director of Editorial, SAGE: 13:46

who has the biggest impact on how you write for a student audience.

Krisstal Clayton, SAGE Author: 13:53

I've had 1000s and 1000s of students. I mean, it's a, it's a massive privilege to have that kind of opportunity, right. And so to kind of narrow it down, I would have to say, the students who keep coming back to me, after they're done with my class, who don't want to let go of that connection with me, those are the students I constantly keep in mind as I write. And a lot of that stems on the conversations that we continue to have after my class is over. And it gives me these great opportunities to ask them, Why are you staying connected with me? Right? What is the reason that you've reached out, you know, even sometimes, years later, and I get this common answer that you know, there were there was this one story you told? Or there was this one theory that I learned and I suddenly everything just made sense, right? It just it just turned the light of the light on in my head about how psychology is connected to everything. And so in these stories, I'm finding that these students are taking them with them, not just To tell others but also to be advocates, and to make own personal changes lasting a lifetime. So one student in particular, shared with me that the stress and wellness lecture that stems from the essentials textbook was something that really made her take notice of the way that she was feeling whether or not she was really participating in her own wellness. And then I piggy back to that lecture with a bullet journal about how do you talk to yourself every day? And what are the good things that you do for yourself? And so they had to track this for two weeks. And she said, she's still doing that, because it helped her realize she didn't have very nice conversations with herself. And that she was also not really paying attention to, was she drinking enough water? Was she getting outside enough? And what kind of people wish she's spending her time with and was it enough time, right? If it was something that was good for her. So she just wanted to reach out and thank me for really changing the way that she treated herself, which I was like, wow, that's such a great compliment. And then another student actually read about the story that is in the textbook of a young female. And I believe it was somewhere in the UK, who was the very first female to be found guilty of abusing her male partner. And so when we talk about intimate partner violence, we often don't see males as survivors, it's often the female who we imagined to be the survivor. And that's not the case, right? No matter what your sexual or gender identity is, intimate partner abuse does does not spare you. And so she never really thought about it that way. And so for some reason, this story really sunk in with her. And so when it was group project time, she chose to lead her team to do a piece on intimate partner violence. And she talked her kids through this as she was working on the group project. And then they became so connected, they donated their birthday money to a nonprofit, that shelters people who are victims and survivors of intimate partner abuse. So when I write I think about these students who come back and share with me, the kinds of changes they've made in their life, or the way that they look at the world because of what they've read, and the things they've been exposed to in my classroom. So yeah, writing really puts me in that state of mind, that state of mind where I want more of those outcomes. I really want more students to go, hey, I can be better to myself, or I can also be not just better to myself, but better to others.

Lara Parra, Associate Director of Editorial, SAGE: 17:54

How would you like to see your field advance the conversations around Dei?

Krisstal Clayton, SAGE Author: 18:00

Keep going back to this safe, because what psychology knows to do is use its tools that we have found work very well. And behavior change, attitude change, right, basically persuasion. And a lot of that is making sure that the topic is approachable. So we have to understand the language. But we also have to feel like we belong in that conversation. So really, what I would like to see psychology do about those conversations around dei is say, Okay, how do we make sure that when we're talking about these issues and initiatives that we aren't excluding people from the conversation we want, we want everyone welcome. And that was something that I mentioned earlier that I was so lucky about. And you mentioned to as a white, cisgender, female, I didn't know everything, and I still don't, but I know more thanks to people who were so willing to gently correct me. And then to have me think differently, outside of the small rural upbringing, that was my 20s. And to do this meant that they weren't going to make me feel like a bad person or a stupid person. And they they also open themselves up to why my perspective was that way, right? What about my background? gave me that opinion. And so I really had a lot of Lucky interactions with teachers, friends that wanted to make sure that I grew and my thinking about dei and that means psychology needs to participate in that too. How do we make sure we're approachable and not participate in what can be a harmful counts of you know, a this cancel culture where if someone says something wrong, because they just don't know any better, we kick them out of the conversation. I think it's important instead to use it as a teachable moment. And with psychology, it can be more than a teachable moment, it can be a moment that also has research that backs that up. So then it's not just opinions, right? It's what psychology has been doing for decades to demonstrate that, yes, this, this really is something that exists, this really is a phenomenon that we need to talk about. And here's some of the data, some of the research that actually supports it. So we do need to learn how to make sure that we keep bringing people and instead of shoving them out, and that we do that, with all of the great research that has that has happened in psychology for so many years. And we also need to do more research, right? We need to find better ways to have more inclusive participant pools. And to have the research that focuses on answering questions about people that we haven't really been asking the questions about in the past, for example, people who experience intersectionality, because there is more going on with just being right into binary categories. There's a full spectrum of people. And so that also just means that we have more questions that we get to answer, which means we get to have more fun, right? We're never going to run out of those questions and opportunities to participate in Dei, in the field of psychology.

Lara Parra, Associate Director of Editorial, SAGE: 21:29

Are there any other specific areas where research is weak or light, in your opinion that psychology could do better?

Krisstal Clayton, SAGE Author: 21:38

Yes, I'm currently working on a chapter about sex, gender, and identity. And the more I'm trying to find research published since 2018, about all the questions I have, the more narrow it seems to become. So I've learned that there are very many different levels to feminism, different types of feminism. I'm learning that now there are a lot of men who are recognizing, hey, there's a lot of things that we're missing out on too, right? Like, we're raised not to be emotional, that that's not okay. And why isn't that okay? Wouldn't that be healthy. And so now I'm trying to find research that really looks at how to better support males and their upbringing so that they feel okay to talk about who they are and their emotions. And I'm finding that yes, again, with intersectionality. That's a very complex combination of variables that make unique groups of people who experience things, not just in a box, but Right. But all of these different things are combining to have these very unique experiences. And I don't see a lot of research on looking at those variables that combine, right, that can lead to these various outcomes. And then we have so many different ways that people identify because they want to be true to how they feel. And so we have to learn about different ways that people identify before we can really dive into the research that includes those participants. And so I think this different ways of identifying is going to also going to open up the doors to all these other different opportunities that we're going to have a psychologist say, hey, there's not a lot of research on this group. And we need to figure out how to answer these important questions. So I love that about psychology, I really think it is the final frontier, I mean, space, great. But the human brain is just, it's unique every time no one else is going to ever be like you. And that means we're never going to ever run out of questions to answer and interesting groups of people right to include in our research. So it's I nerd out, but I can't help.

Lara Parra, Associate Director of Editorial, SAGE: 24:01

So many opportunity. It's hard to find people who conduct research, because that that process is typically started in the last four to five years. So there isn't enough data to analyze and be conclusive around. And I find that disappointing. And I hope that changes myself.

Krisstal Clayton, SAGE Author: 24:20

Yeah, I mean, we're kind of right here on the edge of, hey, we know these are important things to talk about. And so we're going to talk about them. But we don't have a lot of the data, right, that can tell us which which way these things tend to flow, what are the real phenomenon? So in one part, I'm like, I have so many questions and no answers. But on the other side, I'm like, wow, I have so many questions. And there haven't been any answers yet. Which what I find is going to be so much fun as an author, because now I imagined the students reading this information going, Wow. I have these opportunities in psychology where I couldn't be the person who helps the answers to answer these questions right yeah which is why I need more students to see themselves in our material because we need so many people working on these things to let us know right to give us better direction