Dr. Afsaneh Nahavandi: Why DEI is Important & How it Inspires My Writing

A conversation with SAGE author Afsaneh Nahavandi, professor of Management at the University of San Diego and Professor Emerita at Arizona State University. Prior to coming to USD in 2013, she taught at Arizona State University Business School and in the School of Public Administration. While at ASU she was director of the MBA program at ASU’s West campus, director of University College, associate dean of University College and of the College of Public Programs. Prior to joining ASU, she was an assistant professor of Human Resources Management at Northeastern University in Boston.   Most recently, she served as Chair of the Department of Leadership Studies at the University of San Diego.

She is the winner of several teaching awards, including ASU’s 2004 Professor of the Year and is the author of several books, including The Cultural Mindset: Managing People Across Cultures, and is the coauthor of Organizational Behavior.

In this podcast, Afsaneh discusses the importance of DEI, shares the inspiration behind her writing, and reflects on lessons she has learned throughout her career as an educator and author.

Transcript

Lauren Gobell, Acquisitions Editor for Management and Decision Sciences, SAGE: 0:03

So before we begin, I would like to just give a brief introduction. My name is Lauren Gobell, and I am the acquisitions editor for management and Decision Sciences at Sage publishing. And today, I'm excited to be speaking with Afsaneh Nahavandi. She is a Professor of Management at the University of San Diego, and Professor Emerita at Arizona State University. She is the winner of several teaching awards, including Asus 2004, Professor of the Year, and is an author of many books, including two stage titles. One is the cultural mindset, and the other is organizational behavior. So welcome, Afsaneh. So glad to have you here. And I love to just ask a few questions and sort of jump into things. So the first question that I have for you is what inspired you to become a textbook author.

Afsaneh Nahavandi, SAGE Author: 0:55

I, thank you so much for doing this. So it's great to be chatting with you. I have been in the textbook business now for over 20 years. And several of the texts I mean, every textbook in the first one started by not being able to find the material that I wanted, in the format that I wanted. I rely on a lot of articles. And you know, like, I think most instructors these days, I pick and choose, and there's so much available. But I like having a text where the kind of the academic, the basic research is there for students, and they can use it, some of them don't keep it, they resell it, unfortunately. But it's really nice for me to have it and not having how things how I wanted things led me to do this, particularly in the area of culture. I think we didn't have we don't have a lot that focuses on a broad view of culture. So for me, that was the impetus is I like to talk about diversity, I like to do cross cultural management stuff. And I see them very closely related in some ways, and I couldn't find a book that handled both of them. It was either or. So that was for this particular book for the culture book, that was the impetus for promote for the other textbooks. It's always been, I can't find what I want. So I like kind of putting it together finally. Yeah, it's it's nice to have at least know that the students if they're reading it, which I hope they are, you know, can do their own thing and rely on that. And I can do other things, then, then I have the base, they're covered. And then we can do the experiential stuff, or current events, and all the things that keep the class interesting and challenging for them.

Lauren Gobell, Acquisitions Editor for Management and Decision Sciences, SAGE: 2:32

At sage, we really aim to amplify diverse voices, and represent diverse identities in our content. How do you think this comes through in your writing?

Afsaneh Nahavandi, SAGE Author: 2:44

Yes, I'm a little bit of an unusual kind of diversity person. One is I look don't look very diverse, right. So I look very wide eyed stemming. Could be from anywhere kind of in southern Europe or anywhere. I'm from the Middle East originally, I have a very cultural perspective. And I came to the diversity game a little bit by kind of shock. In that the way I see myself, I grew up in a country where it was the majority. So I didn't grow up thinking of myself as an underrepresented group, coming to this country and starting to work as a woman that was kind of a wake up call, I think anywhere, women are still so much underrepresented. And we kind of get that diversity factor understand it better. But it was also how people saw me as an Iranian assuming that I'm Muslim, which I'm not, but that's irrelevant. You know, kind of how people see you as diverse, rather than you yourself. So I came to the diversity game, with a diversity view a little bit late, I always talked about culture, I always wanted to bring in the cultural fact I grew up in Iran, I went to a French school, I came to the US. I've had a lot of cross cultural experiences. But I they were kind of separate from the diversity element. And I finally realized, nope, they're, they're really very similar. It's these elements of I can bring the gender issue, I can bring the cross cultural cross national issue. And then whether I see myself as an Iranian Muslim or Middle Eastern are not as irrelevant. Other people see you that way. So having that kind of perspective of how I see myself versus also how others see me, I think gives me an interesting perspective of being able to step back and say, Hey, we really need to understand the role culture in general plays in how we interact with people. And it isn't just one dimension of culture are the typical ones that we think about when we think about diversity, ethnicity, or gender or not. There's so many, so much more. And I think I represent that I bring that kind of diversity and diversity to my approach, which is hopefully helpful and can enrich the discussion.

Lauren Gobell, Acquisitions Editor for Management and Decision Sciences, SAGE: 4:53

Yeah, and I think with your unique perspective, how do you think that unique person spective that's so apparent in the book helps your students relate to your content.

Afsaneh Nahavandi, SAGE Author: 5:06

You know, it's a broad view of diversity and inclusion rather than a very narrow view. And by narrow, I don't mean bad necessarily, but we can just focus on ethnicity, or we can just focus on particular cultural issues. Diversity has different meanings in different cultures. In this country, we have very specific issues and specific, specific challenges, because of our history because of their social settings. They're not the same in other cultures. So if we just talk about immigration and slavery, which are the key issues for us, we need to understand them when you're from this country you live here, you cannot understand diversity without understanding that background. But you go to India, colonialism, and the caste system is what they really need to think about you go to another part of the world is religious differences. So the fact that I kind of push students to think beyond, yes, you have a different definition of diversity, that may be related to your experience, but step outside of that. And I kind of do that a lot with them be. Because, again, the way I look doesn't fit what they typically think of as diversity beyond the gender. So and it's can be kind of fun and playful. It's fun to talk about cross national differences, it's easy. It's much harder to talk about university factors within the country, because you have power issues, you have historical issues. But going back and forth allows you to change people's perspectives. And that's what I do a lot with my students. Okay, change hasna. Let's talk about cross national, let's talk about something else, and then come back and say, how, how are they similar? How are they different? What can you do to kind of gain an understanding of how cultural impacts

Lauren Gobell, Acquisitions Editor for Management and Decision Sciences, SAGE: 6:53

Yeah, and I think it's invaluable for students to look at culture in that perspective, because that's maybe not something that they're exposed to, until having a course in that area. So it's really great that that comes through in your teaching and in your, in your writing as well. And I'd love to hear sort of the best piece of feedback that you've received, that's changed how you think about these topics, like diversity and inclusion

Afsaneh Nahavandi, SAGE Author: 7:21

is really kind of this experience of coming from personal Lee a place of privilege that it's, I only spend part of my life in Iran and early parts. So I've been here much longer, but kind of the feedback, the one that really struck me, and it was not that long ago, was somebody saying, people don't see you the way you see yourself. And it was really kind of the best way of thinking about how diversity works with people. No matter what you think of yourself, it's great. And I think that's huge piece of what I do is developing the self awareness of your own culture. How do others see? And that was really good feedback for me to think about? How do you teach culture not only from the perspective of the person who is experiencing diversity issues or not, but also from how do others see you. And that kind of runs the world. I was working with an MBA student A little while back, and he's from Louisiana, a white guy. And he said, You know, I am incredibly passionate about diversity, my family has been not on the right side of this issue. But people look at me and hear my accent, and I'm dismissed. And I hate that, you know, we were talking about how we've tend to just impose something on people based on the way they look. And that's the whole issue, right? And that's how we kind of react. But getting into the mindset of, you need to think about how people see you as well as how you see them, and making it about you and about them. So that's really been kind of that was the wakeup kind of the trigger for me to think about, okay, how can we talk about this in a way that's constructive? That's helpful for people that makes them understand what they're working with what they need to work on? And what they have to deal with? What, you know, they need to learn to manage as managers or business goal management people here. They need to be able to think about it in tangible, multiple perspectives.

Lauren Gobell, Acquisitions Editor for Management and Decision Sciences, SAGE: 9:28

Yeah, and that just ties back to the whole theme of your book, the cultural mindset, getting into that mindset. I think that's really a big part of dealing with this topic is being able to think a different way, just the way that you originally think about things so that that's really helpful to hear. And so you talked about this one MBA student that you're working with, are there any other student readers that you keep in mind as you write, and who has had the biggest impact on how You write for your student audience

Afsaneh Nahavandi, SAGE Author: 10:02

all the time. I mean, it's, I write my books after I've taught a class for a while. So you'll be book came out after I've been teaching will be for many, many years. The culture book, same thing I have been teaching social management principles and leadership. We had a class when I was at ESU, that specifically looked at culture. So the students have informed the exercises that are in there, they informed the voice, they the many examples that I use kind of the mix of theory and concepts, the most of the books, the books that I have in kind of a middle, older undergraduate and master's level students. Every time I'm in class, and I try something, I listen to them. I was talking to my students about the OB book, which is getting a little bit of old and dated, and it's language, which, you know, it was a few years ago. And, you know, I asked him, I said, Do you are you uncomfortable with my language, it's still very gendered. Just because it was written at a time when it wasn't as much of a focus. And, you know, they gave me some great feedback. They, you know, one of them said, No, I don't like the fact that you're kind of he she all the time, and I wish you will use day, which is fine. You know, we're we're all learning how to speak about this in a way that makes more people comfortable. But it was great. You know, he kind of said, you know, these examples of ways, but your book is better than some others. It's not that bad. So I'm always kind of asking them, What do you think, what what is working with you? What doesn't make sense? I can't change the books every, you know, as I'm looking at the next editions, and as I'm looking at changing thing, it's a daily thing, I still teach three from three classes to three classes a semester, both undergrad and MBA, an undergrad and MBA level. So those people are always in the back of my head. I, and I used to work a lot with freshmen, that was the same thing as what do we need to teach freshmen? What do we need to teach them about leadership and culture? And when do we start? So those are kind of the audiences that I because I interact with them on a daily basis. They're always there. And I keep notes after class. There's all kinds of scribbles on my syllabus about, oh, this doesn't work. This chapter is not the right place, this could be changed. And then sometimes I lose, that's okay. Usually I retrieve them. And I do it for the next addition. Or when I want to write an article, so yeah, I mean, the you can't I don't start textbooks with me in mind. For me, textbooks are, what do I think the students will be able to engage with and understand? So that's always been my perspective, rather than what do I have to say? Well, that's good. If they don't listen to me, it doesn't help. So it's always been written with the what is it that they will understand, be able to engage with that would be helpful to them, and then trying to present everything that I need to do?

Lauren Gobell, Acquisitions Editor for Management and Decision Sciences, SAGE: 12:59

That's great. And I think that comes through in your writing, too. So thank you for that. And I have one last question. Just how would you like to see your field advanced conversations around diversity, equity and inclusion? And in what areas? Do you think more research is needed?

Afsaneh Nahavandi, SAGE Author: 13:19

Yeah, so I'm doing some work right now on a textbook as well. We don't have enough about leadership and managing across cultures internally. And there's a lot more work maybe in across national cultures. But in terms of diversity, finding things on LGBTQ A almost impossible, finding research on other levels of diversity, religion, for example, regional differences, the urban, you know, city versus urban, rural and urban issues are not addressed. There are so many other levels of diversity. And it's almost like I wish, I don't do a lot of empirical work, but I wish there wasn't with my colleagues may engage in that. And it's very challenging. Just include culture. Keep that in mind, just ask a bunch of cultural questions, gender, ethnicity, urban, rural religion, and see if that makes a difference. Because we need information, we need to be able to understand how the diverse factors and there's a lot of diversity and diversity not focus just on ethnicity or gender. How do these diverse factors impact how people are reacting what we need to do to manage we're beginning to kind of play with generation, and then it gets dismissed all generations don't matter. It doesn't matter. We need to understand the Gen Z and millennials are the biggest group of people in the workplace right now. So there are some things that are good management and good leadership across there's no question, but there are also differences and we can learn from them rather than saying no doesn't matter. Just dismissing them. So I really hope that more More of us, as we do research, include various cultural factors, a diverse diversity factor in how just as a variable, just keep track of it so that we can see whether it has an impact. And start building around that I'm getting more information because we really do need to and particularly as looking at textbooks, students are asking, you know, they always when we talk about personality, they automatically say, well, are women the same? I'd like people the same. are Hispanics, the same? Are you know, Asians the same? They they're always asking, does it make a difference that I'm African American? Does it make a difference? If I'm LGBTQI? They want to know, and it would be nice if I could say yes, no, we don't. I mean, usually is like, there's no research, yeah, well, maybe it feels like the agenda could make a difference. We don't have a lot. So it's a really nice area, to kind of keep building, we now have good journals that are beginning to look more into that and accept those articles, and those types of research and manuscripts. So it would be great to see more of that. And as I'm looking at how we teach diversity, I think we've had a small chat about that before, I really think we need to make sure that we include the diversity in diversity. I am in San Diego, I have a very large Asian population in my students, move fewer African Americans. I had an Asian student who came to me recently and said, you know, the university has been so good about talking about anti racism, that they always talk about anti black racism, I feel excluded. What do you think I should do? And you know, what she's done, student governments are encouraged to to talk to student affairs and kind of express their concerns. Talk about the broadness, you know, so she wasn't saying we shouldn't be talking about African Americans. But she said, I feel excluded. So when we start narrowing the concept of diversity to just a couple of factors, we create more problem, we create the problem that we're trying to solve. So broaden our views of diversity, I was working with a student whose did her Master's on Islamophobia. And she felt like there isn't enough attention, everybody feels like you're not paying attention to me. If we broaden and focus on culture, I think it really does help. Because no matter what you say, if you start targeting one group, somebody else is going to feel excluded. And that's not the purpose of diversity, right? It is to make sure that everybody feels like they can be included, that they can belong. So diversifying our definition of diversity, and how we talk about it will be really helpful. Which is why I think the way your approaches talk about culture in general, rather than specific groups. So anyway, that's my advice for all of you who are doing this amazing work that I can summarize and integrate, and put in my books, include more content, include more culture, so that I can put it in the book so students can learn.

Lauren Gobell, Acquisitions Editor for Management and Decision Sciences, SAGE: 18:00

Yeah, yeah. And we have to hope, you know, as, as you mentioned, future generations, this is really what students today care about and what they want to hear about. So we hope that we can continue to get more research more information in these areas and continue to shape the way we learn about those topics. So

Afsaneh Nahavandi, SAGE Author: 18:17

I think one of the things that I'm learning from my students a lot, is just not get offended. Because I say things sometimes. And I'm supposedly good at this. I'm comfortable with the concept. But I still say things that offend people. And so I have a conversation. And that's something that I also teach a lot in the classes have a conversation. Most people don't mean to be mean to you, most people don't want to offend you. So, you know, learning to have some humility about yep, I, I screwed up, I need to learn. Some of the things that I have in my books cannot be undone because they're there forever. But that's okay. That's alright. We just learn and move on. Diversity is a topic that in the past five, six years has changed. The way we talk about things have changed so much. So we love so we change and it's easy to resistance. Why do I have to use different pronouns? Well learn. We just learn and move on. Yep,

Lauren Gobell, Acquisitions Editor for Management and Decision Sciences, SAGE: 19:20

that's exactly well off center. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me about this. It's always great to hear from our authors. And is there anything else any parting words or any other topics you wanted to revisit? Before we sign off here? I really do appreciate your time.

Afsaneh Nahavandi, SAGE Author: 19:38

Culture is something that once you start thinking about it, it's hard not to so I'm just hoping that even if you're not into cross cultural psychology and cross cultural management or diversity issues, keep culture in the back of your mind because it does impact people. And it's one of the variables that we need to consider as managers and as instructors and teachers. So it's an important one